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    RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

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    Shyguy
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    RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Shyguy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:57 pm

    YELS

    Lap 36-38 (3)
    Lap 46-50 (5)
    Lap 57-59 (3)
    Lap 65-67 (3)
    Lap 115-119 (5)

    5 cautions for 19 laps

    Lap Leaders

    JONNO 1-27 (27)
    SAM 28 (1)
    SIMMS 29-31 (3)
    JONNO 32-41 (10)
    BURNOUT 42-48 (7)
    LANZ 49-58 (10)
    JONNO 59-66 ( 8 )
    LANZ 67-86 (20)
    COOLSEA 87-89 (3)
    LANZ 90-108 (19)
    SAM 109-114 (6)
    LANZ 115-121 (7)
    JONNO 122 (1)
    LANZ 123-125 (3)

    13 lead changes between 6 different leaders

    LANZ: 10+20+19+7+3=59 (5 times) (2xbonus)
    JONNO: 27+10+8+1=46 (4 times) (1xbonus)
    SAM: 1+6=7 (2 times)
    BURNOUT: 7 (1 time)
    COOLSEA: 3 (1 time)
    SIMMS: 3 (1 time)

    Race Time: 49mins 30.248secs
    Average Lap Time: 23.762

    Margin Of Victory: 0.321

    Fastest Lap: Lap 169 - #60 Lanz - 12.592

    GRID:

    1. JonnO 2. Lanz
    3. Burnout 4. Sam
    5. Szymek 6. Simms
    7. Coolsea

    RESULTS:

    #60 Lanz 125/125
    #20 JonnO +0.321
    #32 Sam +2.663
    #38 Simms +4.332
    #22 Burnout +4.374
    #23 Coolsea +6.852 (PENALTY +5 SECONDS)
    #24 Szymek +3 Laps

    Coolsea recieves a penalty for the crash with Sam in the final laps, and more importantly, for not waiting for Sam after that crash. We took ages over this decision, but decided it would set a dangerous precedent not to punish such an incident. If you wreck someone by accident, thats ok, apologize to them later, but make sure you obey the rules and wait for them.
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    Coolsea

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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Coolsea on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:20 am

    You have got to be shitting me. I want to see the replay. Even if I did wreck him, which I'm not saying I did, I stay wrecked in most races. Sometimes people slow up and wait, sometimes they don't. I received a penalty for this, there should be several handed out for Sunday's race. I can think of at least 2(and probably 3) occasions on which I was wrecked and left behind. I am getting pretty tired of these arbitrary rulings....
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    Shyguy
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Shyguy on Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:00 am

    Coolsea wrote:You have got to be shitting me. I want to see the replay. Even if I did wreck him, which I'm not saying I did, I stay wrecked in most races. Sometimes people slow up and wait, sometimes they don't. I received a penalty for this, there should be several handed out for Sunday's race. I can think of at least 2(and probably 3) occasions on which I was wrecked and left behind. I am getting pretty tired of these arbitrary rulings....

    They aren't arbitrary at all - if you make a complaint, we will investigate it and probably hand out a penalty. If you get wrecked and want to see someone punished for it, tell us after the race. Problem is even if it was an accident we can't just let it slide cos that will encourage other's not to wait in similar situations..

    Anyway, basically, of course, we can't investigate every crash, that would be ridiculous and time consuming, so instead we only investigate the ones someone complains about or the really really obvious ones.
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Coolsea on Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:33 am

    Well, I wasn't going to complain, but since we are seemingly getting into that business.... There was a minor incident between me and Sam on Sunday, somewhere around lap 42 after the restart that you saw and even called him out on. No action was taken. I may ----- and moan about getting wrecked, but I've never gone so far as to request someone have their podium taken away. I'd still love to see a replay of this incident, because all I remember about the final lap of the RS race was me and Sam splitting Burnout after he hit the wall coming out of turn two. Nothing about this would upset me except that I get blocked, used as a backstop, and flat out wrecked at least once a race (not to mention messing up on my own while trying to recover from these incidents). I am repeatedly reminded that because I am a backmarker and it doesn't affect the leaders, no action will be taken. I can accept this, but the one time I supposedly affect someone's race, I get robbed of my first podium. It's very frustrating.
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    Burnout
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Burnout on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:46 am

    It was minor Coolsea, but a crash is a crash. If someone is racing you, you make contact, they disappear from sight crashing....you wrecked the guy.

    I could have told Shyguy to ignore it, but I agree with him. We can't start a precedent. If these matters occur during the last green flag run and nothing is done about it before the checkered flag falls, the only thing that can be done is dock time. If these incidents are caught during other points of the race, we have time to settle it usually. The most pivotal point of the race to race fair is the end, puts pressure on you to race hard but smart.

    We do need to be as consistent as possible with penalties during and after a race so its fair.


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    Burnout
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Burnout on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:55 am

    Thinking back on it Shyguy, maybe the 'finite time penalty' isn't the best option. Since I crashed and I let the field by, its weird having Coolsea ranked behind me. I feel the driver should be demoted to behind the car he wrecked being the last couple laps of the event given the circumstances with my crash, it balances out some.

    I realize, it mimics a 'drive-thru' but it doesn't necessarily make the most sense if the checkered already flew. Move him to 4th. Heck it was minor.

    I know we agreed on this on MSN, however looking through the results and thinking back on what happened to me, it makes more sense.


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    Shyguy
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Shyguy on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:01 pm

    I am not sure what I think on this particular penalty but lets assume its black and white and he wrecked him - we have to PUNISH for not waiting rather than just give the position they would of got if they had waited. So I disagree. If you want to make the penalty not as bad because you dont think this PARTICULAR incident was bad, then we will have another look. However in cases where they clearly wrecked someone and chose not to wait, it's got to be more than just putting them where they should be, but a punishment.

    Also time penalties are indiscriminate to position, and that's why they are good. No direct manipulation of the results should be allowed.

    I think we should develop an appeal system where if a driver thinks that there's an unfair penalty they can appeal and it could be made worse, better or taken away completely.
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Burnout on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:20 pm

    True. But think about it, had I finished without crashing, Coolsea would have been 5th or 6th. I consider it luck if another incident occurs and the driver he crashed manages to recover in position before the checkers.

    So in this case, Coolsea gets 4th since Sam managed to recover in position. Sure I waited and he didn't, but that final crash threw a wrench in the whole thing since Sam actually finished in the same position as he was running when the crash occured in the first place (Coolsea in third). I think it was a battle for 4th.

    As for appeals, yes we can 'reinstate that'. We have done an appeals process before. I think this incident is a perfect example of a minor crash that could possibly be turned around.


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    Shyguy
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Shyguy on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:26 pm

    I'm not sure quite what you are trying to say.. penalties should be indiscriminate of the situation on the race track. Thats my opinion. We could apply the same penalty and he wouldn't even lose a spot in a different race. I think we better discuss this more deeply before making any rash decisions.
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    Coolsea

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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Coolsea on Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:24 pm

    So, no chance of seeing a replay then?
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Burnout on Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:14 am

    Well I agree with indiscrimate penalties and you may be right, but we should go through with opening an appeal by Coolsea to see how it goes.

    We should get both him and Sam's input on the incident by viewing the race video (post it on here like you did Burn's Phoenix pass) to give them an opportunity to review and explain the situation. If Sam supports Coolsea's defense and decides to shrug off the incident, we should drop our ruling and leave Coolsea in 3rd.

    As admins, we're seeing things in black and white. Who knows, it'll be nice to hear Coolsea and Sam's analysis of the crash to see things from a different perspective. It sure wouldn't hurt.

    For the future, we should set a three day window for appeals after results are posted indicating penalties given.



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    Shyguy
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Shyguy on Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:17 pm

    Appeal



    Here is the incident in question. Coolsea is driving the #21 and Sam is driving the #32. Original penalty was +5 seconds to the overall race time of Coolsea. Drivers, you have up to 3 days to write a short statement of the incident from your point of view, and then this will be reviewed by the admins.
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    Burnout
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Burnout on Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:01 am

    Can not view video.


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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Burnout on Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:57 pm

    Coolsea never addressed the appeal so the admin standing holds.

    For the record, the penalty is for Coolsea not yielding to Sam after attempting a failed crossover move in Turn 1/2, hitting into the back of Sam while attempting to pass, sending him into the Turn 2 wall.

    Had there been an attempt to wait up, no time penalty would have been given.


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    Coolsea

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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Coolsea on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:06 am

    I see now why the penalty was given, but it seems to me as if Sam got a slight bump to move him, and hit the wall because his decision to not lift off the throttle. The contact took place to the extreme inside of the turn, and carried him all the way to the wall... it just seems stubborn in a series where minor contact is not only legal, but somewhat encouraged. I'll take the penalty after seeing the video, but I'd also like to point out that this is one of the more minor instances of contact I've seen in SCARTS. I'm sure others who have to survive the melee of the rear of the pack will agree. Also, are you sure that this GIF is from the final lap? I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember Burnout hitting the wall on the last lap. It doesn't really matter I guess but it would help me remember what exactly happened.
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    Re: RESULTS: Le Tour De France 250 @ Michigan [Race 10 of 22]

    Post  Burnout on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:17 am

    No hard feelings I hope Coolsea. We had to do the same to JonnO a few weeks back at Montreal which cost him a 2nd place finish.


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